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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:18 pm
Posts: 987
Location: Brazil hiding from Speedy
I mean no disrespect to your grandfather, but a lot has changed since WW2. The military is able to come much closer to combat reality through training today. Veterans do have an advantage because they've experienced what combat feels like. The difference today is that a modern novice already knows much more of what combat will feel like than a novice from a previous time. History does show that veterans do better, but that gap has radically closed as history also shows a phenomenal improvement in training.

Your illustration about the difference between hitting the pads and sparring is apt, but this is more like the difference between sparring and a match in the ring. There is a difference, yes, but that difference is becoming smaller and smaller as technology diversifies, veterans from the gulf war rotate back into training billets and pass on their intensity and experiences, and military training continues to evolve.

Back to civilians. I really am tired of hearing that it's impossible to train realistically. Usually the conclusion the poster reaches is that because of that impossibility...they're going to train in a sport and just trust that to be okay. There are schools that teach realistically and there are things to look out for. A good school should be training someone in pre-fight body language recognition, verbal cues, and typical strategies of muggers/rapist/gangs. A good school should be constantly utilizing full-contact fighting not so much in sparring, but in scenarios. A good example of this would be role-playing entering your car as someone comes up, speaks with you, and then attacks you. The fighting is as hard as possible, obstacles such as the car are in place, and people are standing by to both watch for safety and to provide more distractions/flashing lights/screaming/hitting you with pads/etc.... There are no time limits or referees...only final judges. Modern weapons should be integrated such as stick, knife and gun. You should be trained both to use them and to defend against them. Finally you should be trained in legalities and post-fight responses. None of this is exhaustive or definitive, but it is a rare school that will do things this way. Please note that this is not skill training...but solely tactics.

I'm not saying that this will give you 100% of the feel of a real street fight. It will however give you imho at least 95% of one. That's phenomenally better than the 30% or less that's seen frequently. The good schools tend to give you a sense of dread about showing up. It's as bad as knowing you're about to really fight. I'd take that over a sport art any day because the street is what I'm going to have to deal with. I would never go to the type of school I've described to get ready to fight in the ring. Don't pretend that they're the same or accomplish the same goals.


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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Location: Idaho
Stress Innoculation for pre-combat psychological conditioning has now become the buzz-word of the training world. Because it has proven to work. You learn to manage adrenaline, your breathing, tunnel vision, mental and emotional overload, etc.

Force on force is also a phrase used to describe training scenarios that are as close to the real deal (and sometimes more violent and stressful than the real deal) that condition a person to operate in a zone where the normal, untrained reaction would be to flee or freeze.

For example, I was recently running two-man high-speed live-ammo shooting drills, with lots of moving, multiple targets, team cover and support tactics, etc., that is all fairly dangerous by itself, but they added thick smoke, sirens, flashing lights, and screaming people to the mix.

The next level up would be to substitute a live opposing force for the inanimate targets, and arm us all with simunitions, (that hurt like a mother!) and have the opposing force gunning for us as we worked forward trying to achieve our objective. We do that kind of training, too.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. It's not your 14yr old little brother's paintball game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCm7qwF-oJE

Work it hard, make it as tough and real as possible without doing any permanent damage, train the mind-set, and when the real shit hits the fan, guess what? You just man up and do the job.

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Blessed be the Lord my rock, Who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle! Psalm 144:1
For those who have hunted armed men, training will never be the same.
Help the children of fallen heroes: Please Donate: http://www.specialops.org/


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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:45 pm
Posts: 415
It really depends on what role the OP will be in.

If it's more security, and there is a necessity for control without much harm to the opponent, than Judo or similar (BJJ, wrestling variations, etc) are very good--this is why police often like Judo. Sort of self-defense from the legal system as well as the attacker.

If it's truly self-defense or a situation the OP could act with greater freedom with less regard to consequences to the attacker, Krav or another striking art like good old fashioned boxing.

The force-on-force thing is great, but hard to acquire outside of sponsored training programs.

Two final thoughts:
1) the school/gym/trainer is often more important than the style.
2) learning a martial art or sport could become a lifelong interest with greater value than its application to the current job.

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"As long as you understand it's all one string, you WILL be ok."


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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:29 am
Posts: 350
Paladin and Jesse are right. It is more than possible to comprehensively train a soldier to the point where they are equiped to act according to their training without shitting themselves in a high stress scenario. A good example to add to the several good examples listed by those guys can be seen from the training of the SAS. One of the drills they do is in a room they call the killing room. One member of their squad will sit on a chair in the middle of a blacked out room, with targets (no coincidence that targets nowadays are pictures of men, either) all around. The rest of the squad then practise live fire drills, bursting into the room, using flash grenades etc, along with shooting live ammunition at the targets around the member of their squad. This kind of thing trains individuals to function effectively in extremely high stress environments. It also trains those who are sitting on the chair to remain calm when bullets are flying all around them and they are disorientated. Do not underestimate how possible it is to train yourself, within a controlled environment, to be a genuine force to be reckoned with, someone who is capable of prevailing when things go south rapidly. It is possible, and it happens every day.

That said, for civilians, nothing so drastic is required. Spend some time living somewhere rough and you will quickly find that you instinctively recognise trouble, potential threats etc. Learn the body language, avoid areas you know are dangerous and realise that if running is an option, running is your best option. At the point you actually have to fight, you have fucked up pretty badly, because unless you're jumped, you've failed to notice clear warning signs.

If, for any reason, you do actually have to fight, my personal belief is that your mentality and resolve, rather than any fancy tricks, will be the decidinng factor. If you find yourself unable to run, you need to realise you're in a fight before the guy in front of you realises he is in a fight. Hit first, hit hard, then run. Personally, I believe sport fighting where you learn to strike effectively, coupled with some conscious and practised alterationis to disguise what you are doing in an altercation, is as effective as most things.

Violence is predictable, and not often random. You are either having to fight because you failed to notice trouble coming your way, or you have actively solicited trouble by letting your ego get in the way of your good sense. I don't personally believe there is a great deal of merit in learning to disarm people with weapons, for a number of reasons. If someone gets into lethal range of you with a weapon, you have missed a glaring opportunity for escape somewhere along the line. If you cannot recognise someone who is headed your way with bad intentions, I don't think that a few disarming techniques will do you any good. The good news is that if this applies to you, you probably haven't upset the person who is armed, in which case, your best bet is compliance. Noone wanting a wallet, or your car, wants a murder charge if they can get away with a theft charge.

If the person coming at you with a weapon is known to you, because you have got yourself mixed up in some funny business, then the chances are he has arranged a situation where he knows you're fucked. When someone like that holds all the aces, you really dont stand a chance, because he is intent on harm, usually has back up, and will have planned the situation to catch you unawares. No technique in the world will save you in such a situation. If you are at risk, any risk, of comeback from a falling out, it is my personal belief that the only effective techniques are to strike pre-emptively, and in such a way as to ensure that the desire for revenge is extinguished in your adversary, or to pack up your life and move far away. Anything in between and you stand a good chance of being a statistic. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. This is something that everyone who anticipates dealing with violence must force themselves to come to terms with. It is extremely unpalettable, but it is the reality of illegal, street violence. Hence the emphasis posters such as Paladin and Jesse put on avoidance as the most effective self defence technique.

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"My name is Smokin' Joe Frazier, sharp as a razor! Ha! Yeah, "floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee". Ha! I'm the man who done the job. He knows. Look and see. Call me, bye-bye"

When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say,
For Their Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today


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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:48 am
Posts: 997
Interesting discussion and I see where you guys are coming from, but I still do not agree and I can't say I would start training Krav maga any time soon, or recommend it to anyone who was looking into self defense. I also believe a veteran soldier is far superior to a newly shipped over greenhorn.

I also don't agree at all with the SAS analogy as these guys are usually already decorated soldiers and go through incredibly grueling trials to get to their position. Their training merely improves upon the skills they have already built.

I'm glad this stayed civil though. Do what works for you.

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Study strategy over the years and achieve the spirit of the warrior. Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.
Miyamoto Musashi


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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:27 pm
Posts: 2336
Location: Idaho
To Cheapshot, great analysis.

Regarding SAS room clearing tactics, our Delta and SEALs train the same way. Maybe we got it from you Brits.

I've done a lot of room clearing, but the level you're talking about, is amazing, scary stuff.

A good friend of mine is a trainer and chief door-kicker for ICE. He finds that he trains his guys to a tougher standard than 90% of what they run into, breaking up meth houses, chasing down gun runners, slave traders, and so on. Because he's been there/done that, he knows how to train his guys for reality. And their comment often is, "that last bust was easier than what that a$$hole R_______ put us through in training last week."

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Blessed be the Lord my rock, Who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle! Psalm 144:1
For those who have hunted armed men, training will never be the same.
Help the children of fallen heroes: Please Donate: http://www.specialops.org/


Last edited by Paladin on Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:37 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:29 am
Posts: 350
Paladin wrote:
Regarding SAS room clearing tactics, our Delta and SEALs train the same way


Paladin, I'm not surprised to hear that, although I was unaware that they did. These guys operating at the top level are, as you gave examples of, capable of handling real situations with ruthless efficiency, as a result of dedicated training which is designed to mimic the stress faced in combat. The training is all designed by people who have been there and done it, first hand. These guys are no mugs, and the programs they design will allow those who train in them to thrive at the sharp end of things.

I have always had the pleasure of growing up around these people, and more recently working closely with them. I am in no doubt as to the efficiency and effectiveness of their training, and from their accounts of contacts, neither were they.

_________________
"My name is Smokin' Joe Frazier, sharp as a razor! Ha! Yeah, "floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee". Ha! I'm the man who done the job. He knows. Look and see. Call me, bye-bye"

When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say,
For Their Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today


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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:08 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:18 pm
Posts: 127
Location: SoCal
In regards to those who think even if you train for combat, it's nowhere near the same...Bullshit. I'm a Marine Grunt. All we do is training for combat situations. Going from training to actual environment, the feeling is exactly the same. In training a lot of it is controlling your self, remaining calm. Shit, S a squad leader, if bee. On situations were some of my team leaders were losing there no.ca, while I just walked casually to them, asking wtf.

The WWII comparisons are inherently flawed. Reasons cuz wwii draftees don't have anywhere as much training as us. Those that join now know they're going to war, and this we are prepared rightfully so. Training from a training environment does carry over to real life. Compare an Afghanistan national soldier to a US Marine. Big fucking difference. With that, I believe any MMA will transfer over to a real life situation. Best id say krav maga. After training with the Israelis, they know what works

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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:35 am 

Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 10:10 am
Posts: 1658
Location: Hampshire, UK
Check the club (whatever style it is):

Do they train with full power techniques (not just agains air)?
Do you get to spar full power against opponents who are allowed to adapt?

If the answer to these questions is 'no' then walk away, what you are learning is not practical.

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Training priority for combat sport is SKILL, CONDITIONING, STRENGTH.
I swear I will smash your face in with a brick if you keep arguing!

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 Post subject: Re: Which one for real situations?
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:18 pm
Posts: 987
Location: Brazil hiding from Speedy
SteveTaylor's final question about realism:


DO THEY WEAR REAL ARMOR?


I still want to fight in the SCA. :*(


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