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 Post subject: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:51 pm 

Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 2:42 am
Posts: 61
Just curious what you think about Hong Kong Airlines training their flight attendants in wing chun. Some training to deal with unruly passengers certainly seems appropriate but is wing chun the way to go? http://www.travel-plan-idea.com/archives/005302.html


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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:27 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:18 pm
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It's definitely designed for up close situations. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:45 pm
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Wing Chun taught right is good as it excels at close range fighting, however, a very large proportion of the WC that is taught around the world is crap.

Plus, it doesn't focus on grappling, which is the next logical range after close-range striking.

Like all martial arts, you only get out what you put in, and I question the dedication to continued training as part of an employer-mandate.

I personally think they'd be better off focus on verbal conflict resolution skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:15 pm 

Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 2:42 am
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I don't know wing chun but some of the moves I saw in the video seemed to come from jiujitsu, like what to do when someone grabs you. I always thought that was practical - in real life you probably get grabbed more often than punched.

But then you look at the punches they are throwing in training and you think they must be training these girls to get themselves killed.


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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:56 pm 
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Drjones wrote:
I personally think they'd be better off focus on verbal conflict resolution skills.


In terms of what they're going to get out of the time they're likely to put in, I think this is absolutely correct. Teach them something simple, if you're going to teach anything at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:44 am 
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You can't just teach them verbal conflict resolution, because against a hijacker that isn't going to work. You're talking about someone that is bound and determined, and more than likely more than willing (and probably expecting) to die for their cause. Do you really think that a flight attendant with 30 hours of classroom conflict resolution is going to defuse that human stick of dynamite? No way.

As stated earlier, wing chun is an effective style of martial arts when taught properly. Furthermore, I think it's ridiculous how anyone, whether it's a company or an individual, sticks to just one style and thinks that they have the cure-all. Wing chun certainly neglects some aspects of fighting, i.e.: a dedicated ground game. However, for CQC, wing chun is an extremely effective foundation. Simultaneous blocking and striking, roll punching (aka straight blast), joint destruction, center line theory, chi sao, etc. are all very sound and efficient ways to defeat someone in extremely close quarters, which is what a flight attendant would face on an airplane.

If you take krav maga, kali, and jeet kune do, you will notice a ton of similarities in theory and technique shared with wing chun. Obviously, JKD is a hybrid, whose base is set with wing chun, but kali and krav maga are completely unrelated styles. The reason for the similarities are simple: They are effective with CQC. Kali was developed with years of experience, and krav is constantly tested in the real world, both in war time and street encounters by law enforcement.

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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:53 am 
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OK, I'm a player in this stuff for quite a few years now and here's my 0.02 €:


*ing *ung taught by serious ppl who got their shit together is working. But, as another poster above has already stated, around the world it is often crappily taught. Usually by ppl who had their last fight in highschool (and lost). It however does have some interesting moves and concepts which I incorporated into my training.

What I generally don't like is that's it's usually taught without incorporating any physical exertion and therefore realistic intensity. My wife did WT for years in a women only school and greatly overestimated her abilities. Brutally shattered when we went to a Krav class together and I, back then totally untrained in MA and sans much ooomp for a man, kicked the shield she was holding with maximum force causing her to be pushed across the room and almost tripping over. I'll never forget that face of realization that all her training just died in part of a second.

*ing *un does furthermore share inherent weaknesses of all traditional martial arts.

E.g. being conservative and having been developed in a completely different society. The reason medieval Chinese and Japanese bothered with H2H combat at all is because for common ppl weapons were eithter unaffordable or possesion meant instant death if discovered (usually for the whole family). Also threats were of course vastly different from today and the whole rulebook too.

Then *ing *un from what I've seen is weak on finishing. For airline security you want two things: Restrain an unruly passenger, e.g. a drunk, without injuring him. Incapacitate a terrorist threat immediately. I don't see where a flurry of (at best) medium power hammerfists and chops plays a role in any of these two possible scenarios.

Martial arts also offer too many solutions for the same problem (for the sake of masters not running out of things to teach in exchange for $). Great risk of freezing, better only one tool in the shed but on instant call. Nodoby needs to master 6 ways to deal with a haymaker, but perfect the one suiting the individual fighter best and maybe a second if one stands in a posture that makes the prime move difficult.

Krav has been mentioned. Kinda same problem as *ing *un. Palm strikes are nice and dandy, but you can't use them on someone who's simplay an asshole but still a customer with the number of a good lawyer in his wallet. Also a terrorist threat might weather your flurry of plam strikes to still finish whatever he's got in mind. I do know advanced Krav teaches takedowns etc., but it is mostly a striker game played at striker distance. For airline security IMO you should want more.

Players in that field either start at one point collecting their own toolbox of stuff that works for them outside of schools and styles. Or they, what is more usual, drop out because they feel the style is not going further and they've seen all. Often coupled with a real world experience where their dojo moves failed to work.

My usual recommendation is to look for someone who's actually been there and faced it and learn a few moves from him that work. Then train them to perfection and knee jerk reaction so they'll be actually there when you need them and stress/shock/anger kick in. Ppl should also at one point fight a noncooperative opponent in a suit or mill with their training partners. Sport combat sparring was nice but didn't work for me because all of a sudden a sports oriented rulebook is dropped on your combat training, you work in protective gear nonexistant on the street (gloves) and you incorporate bad habits (like e.g. breaks).

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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:54 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:42 am
Posts: 7
sculls wrote:
Krav has been mentioned. Kinda same problem as *ing *un. Palm strikes are nice and dandy, but you can't use them on someone who's simplay an asshole but still a customer with the number of a good lawyer in his wallet. Also a terrorist threat might weather your flurry of plam strikes to still finish whatever he's got in mind. I do know advanced Krav teaches takedowns etc., but it is mostly a striker game played at striker distance. For airline security IMO you should want more.

Players in that field either start at one point collecting their own toolbox of stuff that works for them outside of schools and styles. Or they, what is more usual, drop out because they feel the style is not going further and they've seen all. Often coupled with a real world experience where their dojo moves failed to work.

My usual recommendation is to look for someone who's actually been there and faced it and learn a few moves from him that work. Then train them to perfection and knee jerk reaction so they'll be actually there when you need them and stress/shock/anger kick in. Ppl should also at one point fight a noncooperative opponent in a suit or mill with their training partners. Sport combat sparring was nice but didn't work for me because all of a sudden a sports oriented rulebook is dropped on your combat training, you work in protective gear nonexistent on the street (gloves) and you incorporate bad habits (like e.g. breaks).


I do Krav Maga too. Some of my observations:

1.) Most Krav techniques are taught to civilians on the basis that going to the ground and restraining your opponent is a bad idea, especially if you're a beginner. It emphasizes strikes and striking distance above grappling/groundfighting distance because it's much harder to run away from a fight if you're off your feet.

Krav Maga taught to law enforcement and people who really have to take on and restrain suspects/hijackers/terrorists has a substantially larger body of groundwork.

2.) That being said, many Krav Maga schools have a partnership with jujitsu schools. Fabricio Werdum teaches grappling classes at the National Training Center for example. Other KM schools frequently offer wrestling, groundfighting or jujitsu programs as needed.

3.) My instructors strongly encourage crosstraining to develop the toolbox of techniques needed for use. In fact, they arranged for partnerships with a BJJ school and an FMA school.

4.) Suits, like Redman suits are awesome. As is doing a full contact training session in a business suit (we have work clothes nights), as you might just get attacked while wearing something restrictive.

5.) I try to hit without gloves or wraps when I can to simulate bare knuckle hitting on the street.

6.) __ng __un could better iron out its own issues if they actually hit each other in the face every once in a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:45 pm 
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I don't have a hard on for Krav, have done it myself intensly for years and what I am as a martial artist I owe to that school. Krav is especially good at ingraining good habits (e.g. proper stance, proper striking and breathing).

However, in it's core it's a system designed to quickly bring untrained ppl up to a point where they can handle themselves. And as such it's beginner stuff. Advanced classes never fail to underwhelm me because it's something different tacked on to something perfectly working for Average Joes. I.e., as you point out, striking and getting the hell out of Dodge. Advanced Krav is usually doormen type restricting stuff and therefore alien to Krav Maga. I think it's better learned at a specific school/course from ppl who actually man a door. And for the average punter these advanced courses are at best useless and at worst dangerous because they really should stay in a GTFO mindset and not wrestle a threat to the ground.

The beauty of Krav is it's simplicity. And this IMO should not be messed with.

Them BJJ ... I really respect these athletes and it's a cool sport, but from a combat perspective BJJ is a huge bag full of ugly habits. Turning to BJJ schools to perfect self defence training is stupid and most likely simply a business decision. IMO the only sport that well carries over into self defence is western boxing.

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Train congruently! (not much of a catchphrase but a great concept)
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 Post subject: Re: Wing chun for flight attendants?
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:09 am 
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I agree that a problem with Krav is when they try to take it beyond the basics. You then end up with having to add in the fancy stuff that was taken out in the first place to make it effective. Personally, I think that combatives as a stand alone should only be the basics. Any progression then simply needs to be one of pressure, multiple opponents, and more complicated scenarios.

I also agree that other situations like the grappling/restraint sections need to be taught with separate goals and principles and that they need to be taught by someone who has been there and done that. I've trained under two guys who've spent quite a bit of time on the doors around the world (especially my current instructor), but I still hate control and restraint. It's much more difficult than striking and the risks are much higher.

Where I'd get off onto my own opinion is this though. I personally think that the stewardesses should only be trained in full bore combatives. Either they're dealing with a serious threat or they're not. Control and restraint just isn't going to work well at all in the air without multiple people diving into things. Quarters are too tight. The time frame is too long before you get ground authorities there to help you. The threats are either very dangerous (terrorism) and you should react with as much force as possible or they're innocuous enough that just restraining someone without it going any further isn't a decent option. Also I'm not trying to be chauvinist at all with this, but I don't see your average female flight attendant being able to restrain anyone of any size for a lengthy time period. I weigh close to 200 lbs and I wouldn't want to have to wrestle and hold someone at 30,000 feet and then hold them all the way until we land. Size and strength disparity demands that she fight full bore from the start if she has to fight at all. I can see where "martial" training will build confidence, but this middle of the road kind of training seems to be building misplaced confidence.


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